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Duinkonijn

Duinkonijn

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BerichtOnderwerp: CBS statistics INDO   CBS statistics INDO Icon_minitimema 1 aug 2011 - 22:57

Indo culture in the Netherlands
Next to their culinary culture, Indo influence in Dutch society is mostly reflected in the arts, i.e. music[82][83] and literature[84]. The biggest manifestation of Indo culture in the world is the Tong Tong Fair[85], formerly known as the Pasar Malam Besar[86] event, which is organized in the Netherlands every year. The main musical formats Indos introduced to Europe are Kroncong and Indorock.[87] Indo culture by definition is a mix of various European and Indonesian elements.[88] The dominant language spoken by the majority remains Dutch. Indos were never formally educated in the Indonesian language. But many were fluent in the lingua franca 'Malay'. Their mix language known as Petjok[89] (a Dutch/Malay creole, comparable to French/African Patois, or the Portuguese/Macanese Patua) is slowly dying out completely. The single most important champion of Indo culture was the avant garde and visionary writer Tjalie Robinson (1911–1974), who co-founded the Tong Tong Fair.
Third generation Indos in the Netherlands
Although third and fourth generation Indos [90] are part of a fairly large minority community in the Netherlands, the path of assimilation ventured by their parents and grandparents has left them with little knowledge of their actual roots and history, even to the point that they find it hard to recognise their own cultural features. Some Indos find it hard to grasp the concept of their Eurasian identity and either tend to disregard their Indonesian roots or on the contrary attempt to profile themselves as Indonesian.[91] [92] In recent years however the reinvigorated search for roots and identity has also produced several academic studies.[93]
In her master thesis published in 2010 Dutch scholar Nora Iburg [94] argues that for third generation Indos in the Netherlands there is no need to define the essence of a common Indo group identity and concludes that for them there is in fact no true essence of Indo identity except for its’ hybrid nature.[95]

’Third generation Indos in the Netherlands are nomadic thinkers, concentrating on a consciousness (and evolution) of Indo identity […], in stead of the illusion that the essence of Indo identity can be determined. This nomadic consciousness enables them to re-think and re-invent static categories. Nomadism gives its subject energy to fade out borders without burning bridges.’ Nora Iburg, 2010.

However to be able to do this there can not be disregard of history and she mentions the re-construction of family history as the first step.[96]

'Only by doing justice to history and acknowledging the memories and emotions of the first generation, the next generations will be able to construct their own identities.' Nora Iburg, 2010
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http://home.planet.nl/~hvschaik/home.htm
Anti-Indo

Anti-Indo

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BerichtOnderwerp: Re: CBS statistics INDO   CBS statistics INDO Icon_minitimedi 2 aug 2011 - 7:14

I like to think of a line in singer Gavin DeGraw's 'I Don't Want To Be': "Part of where I'm going is knowing where I'm coming from." I don't know if he borrowed those words from someone else, though I'm sure it appeared in literature before in some shape or form.
It's also my current motivation for finding out more about Indo culture, while also having developed some interest for modern Indonesia, without wanting to do silly things as mentioned ('attempt to profile themselves as Indonesian'); fx running around with RI flags and the Pancasila Garuda coat of arms is a no-no for me.

I believe I've seen Nora Iburg's book on a pasar malam this year, and I leafed through it... I should probably read it, I just saw it's available in my local library. I recognise many of the things fellow third generation Indos are publishing and posting on the subject of Indo identity, but I also like that there is usually disagreement even among 3rd gen Indos themselves about the precise definitions, because we're, as Iburg says 'a hybdrid people', and in a certain sense, 'nomadic'.

Duinkonijn, in the Wikipedia article about Indo people you have quoted, the paragraph above this one actually focuses more on CBS statistics, particularly in relation to the integration of Indos. Some of those statistics are interesting with respect to the on-going discussions on Indo-related forums, whether involving 1st, 2nd, or 3rd generation Indos, or all of the above. Some of it also makes you scratch your head, honestly.

Well, here it is:

Citaat :
Integration of Indos in the Netherlands

In the 1990s and early 21st century the Netherlands was confronted with ethnic tension[83] in a now multi-cultural society. (In 2006 statistics show that in Rotterdam, the second largest city in the country, close to 50% of the inhabitants were of foreign descent.) The Indo community however is considered the best integrated ethnic and cultural minority in the Netherlands. Statistical data compiled by the CBS shows that Indos belong to the group with the lowest crime rates in the country.[84]

A CBS study of 1999 reveals that of all foreign born groups living in the Netherlands, only the Indos have an average income similar to that of citizens born in the Netherlands. Job participation in government, education and health care is similar as well. Another recent CBS study, among foreign born citizens and their children living in the Netherlands in 2005, shows that on average, Indos own the largest number of independent enterprises. A 2007 CBS study shows that already over 50% of first-generation Indos have married a native born Dutch person. A percentage that increased to 80% for the second generation.[85] One of the first and oldest Indo organisations that supported the integration of Indo repatriates into the Netherlands is the Pelita foundation.[86]

Although Indo repatriates,[87] being born overseas, are officially registered as Dutch citizens of foreign descent, their Eurasian background puts them in the Western sub-class instead of the Non-Western (Asian) sub-class.

Two factors are usually attributed to the essence of their apparently seamless assimilation into Dutch society: Dutch citizenship and the amount of 'Dutch cultural capital', in the form of school attainments and familiarity with the Dutch language and culture, that Indos already possessed before migrating to the Netherlands.[88]


Laatst aangepast door Anti-Indo op di 2 aug 2011 - 7:20; in totaal 1 keer bewerkt (Reden van aanpassing : added wikipedia paragraph)
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Boeroeng

Boeroeng

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BerichtOnderwerp: Re: CBS statistics INDO   CBS statistics INDO Icon_minitimedi 2 aug 2011 - 9:04

This wikipedia-article is worth mentioning.
Please, make it a habit to give the sources of quotes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo_people
Keep in mind that the definitions of the generations from the CBS aren't the most used definitions in the society.
Giovanni van Bronckhorst is possible not from an eurasian descent.
His indo-father van Bronckhorst isn't his biological father.
Maria Dermout is considered Indisch, but she wasn't indo-european.
Possible the same with du Perron. He grew up with the familyhistory he was totok.
But in his last years he heard some doubt about this from the genealoog Boys from Treslong
( the indo's van Dis and van Dort heard this familyhistory as well)

about this quote
Citaat :

Two factors are usually attributed to the essence of their apparently seamless assimilation into Dutch society: Dutch citizenship and the amount of 'Dutch cultural capital', in the form of school attainments and familiarity with the Dutch language and culture, that Indos already possessed before migrating to the Netherlands.
This is true, but one forgot the third factor and most important element.
Most indo-people were Dutch - in cultural feelings and ancestry- and they want to be Dutch.

about this quote from Nora Iburg
Citaat :
’Third generation Indos in the Netherlands are nomadic thinkers
Many grandchildren of the adults who emigrated doesn't have any interest in their indo-background and this quote seems a generalisation.
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Anti-Indo

Anti-Indo

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BerichtOnderwerp: Re: CBS statistics INDO   CBS statistics INDO Icon_minitimedi 2 aug 2011 - 14:11

Boeroeng schreef:
This wikipedia-article is worth mentioning.
Please, make it a habit to give the sources of quotes.
I will, in the future.


Citaat :
about this quote
Citaat :

Two factors are usually attributed to the essence of their apparently seamless assimilation into Dutch society: Dutch citizenship and the amount of 'Dutch cultural capital', in the form of school attainments and familiarity with the Dutch language and culture, that Indos already possessed before migrating to the Netherlands.
This is true, but one forgot the third factor and most important element.
Most indo-people were Dutch - in cultural feelings and ancestry- and they want to be Dutch.
But Boeroeng, what I read in many online Indo communities, like this one (and in literature), is that a great number of Indos didn't feel all that happy to be adapting to Dutch society. And that the assimilation was more or less a survival strategy for many: teach your children to behave as Dutch as possible -especially outside the house- do NOT speak Malay, only Dutch, focus on good education and career for yourself and your children, etc.

On the other hand, I must say that, in my own experience, my grandmother and grandfather never spoke of any significant problems 'adapting' to Dutch culture, exactly because of the factor you mention: they had already been heavily Dutch-influenced in their upbringing in the East Indies (I know for one thing at least my grandfather barely spoke Malay, mostly Dutch), and so, felt affinity toward Dutch culture.
Nor did my aunts have any major culture-clash problems growing up. At home and outside of home, they kept their Indo values intact. So I can recognise myself best in the factors the article mentions, and the 3rd one you added. But I thought it was worth mentioning that many people say the first generation's integration into Dutch society was not as smooth as often claimed.

Citaat :
about this quote from Nora Iburg
Citaat :
’Third generation Indos in the Netherlands are nomadic thinkers
Many grandchildren of the adults who emigrated doesn't have any interest in their indo-background and this quote seems a generalisation.
Two thoughts spring to mind here. When Iburg contacted 3rd generation Indos as sources for her thesis, she was probably more likely to find people willing to participate in her study among those Indos who were in some way conscious about their Indo identity- which can mean anything from cooking a sayur once a week, to visiting every pasar malam there is. It's like when you have a poll on one of the Indo forums/communities on-line, and you try to get an idea of what Indos in general think about whatever your poll is about. You're not going to get that, you're only going to get the opinion of all those Indos who are actively occupied with Indo culture to the point that they've joined on-line Indo message boards and frequently post on them. (It took me years to take that step).

Second, let's take a look at those statistics again:
A 2007 CBS study shows that already over 50% of first-generation Indos have married a native born Dutch person. A percentage that increased to 80% for the second generation
Not to take these numbers too seriously, because it's still CBS and it's still Wikipedia, but let's assume that there's a foundation for the percentages (in my opinion, they're mind-boggling). With the ethnic identity of subsequent generations of Indos 'watering down' (and I use this term reluctantly), the sense of involvement with Indo culture may not be huge with the majority, especially because of the smooth integration into Dutch society. Why turn to something that's basically 'foreign' when you're all settled as Dutch here in NL?
Of course, cultural identity does not always depend on ethnic identity: someone could have a native Dutch father, and their Indo mother could have a native Dutch father, but if their mother (or mutatis mutandis their father) raises them with obvious Indo cultural undertones or overtones, they may well identify as Indo no matter how much 'Asian blood' is running through their veins alongside Caucasian ancestry.

Case in point, I'm technically also one half Creole/Indian (from India), but because I was raised by my mother, I culturally identify as a Dutch Indo.
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Boeroeng

Boeroeng

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BerichtOnderwerp: Re: CBS statistics INDO   CBS statistics INDO Icon_minitimewo 3 aug 2011 - 9:24

Anti-Indo schreef:


But Boeroeng, what I read in many online Indo communities, like this one (and in literature), is that a great number of Indos didn't feel all that happy to be adapting to Dutch society. And that the assimilation was more or less a survival strategy for many: teach your children to behave as Dutch as possible -especially outside the house- do NOT speak Malay, only Dutch, focus on good education and career for yourself and your children, etc.
Of course ...one choose to life at the place were one was born and raised, but there was no choice left. 'Being Dutch op zijn Indisch' doesn't mean that the first choice of Indische Nederlanders was to life in the Netherlands. Doesn't mean the assimilation into the mothertribe at the other side of the planet was without pain

Citaat :
But I thought it was worth mentioning that many people say the first generation's integration into Dutch society was not as smooth as often claimed.
True... many was unspoken, many tears were not seen.

Citaat :
When Iburg contacted 3rd generation Indos as sources for her thesis, she was probably more likely to find people willing to participate in her study among those Indos who were in some way conscious about their Indo identity-
yes.... a good explanation about the generalisation.


Citaat :

A 2007 CBS study shows that already over 50% of first-generation Indos have married a native born Dutch person. A percentage that increased to 80% for the second generation
CBS defined 1th generation as: who was born in Indonesia with at least one parent born in Indonesia. I don't accept that 50% or more of this group married an indigenous Dutch partner. This is very unlikely.
However it is possible the research was about the 1th generation who was still living about 2007. In my view the large majority of this groupe is 2th generation (the children of the adults who immigrated to the Netherlands)


shhhh terrible to answer with my crappy englisch
What a Face Suspect No
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Boeroeng

Boeroeng

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BerichtOnderwerp: Re: CBS statistics INDO   CBS statistics INDO Icon_minitimewo 3 aug 2011 - 9:29

misteekje...... thanks
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